What is wrong with homosexuals? Are you against Jewish people also? Do you think the Holocaust was wrong?? If you do then you should understand that you are supported modern-Hitler ideas by being prejudiced against homosexuals. When did you decide that you were heterosexual? At what age? If you don’t know, it’s because you never had to decide. You just are the way you are. Homosexual people never decided they wanted to be gay. I have a hard time understanding why people are racist also. If you think racism is wrong, maybe you should think about your opinions against gays. I still cannot believe that there are people in this world still close-minded. I cannot wait until people like you get off of this earth, and make it a happier place. Thank you for your time.

I’m not sure what you read on our website that would make you conclude we are prejudiced against homosexuals. Perhaps you are confusing our position against homosexual practice, with bigotry against those who discover they have homosexual feelings. We condemn homosexual practice because God, who created sex in the first place, condemns it as abnormal and a perversion of His plan. We also believe in the dignity of human beings, made in the image of God, who are given the gift of choice of our actions, and that includes the choice over whether to act on homosexual desires or not. We do not condemn those who experience homosexual feelings, recognizing that those are not chosen; but we agree with the Bible when it says that acting on those feelings is sinful and wrong. Please understand, this is a difference between actions and feelings. One is wrong, the other is not.

We are not prejudiced against homosexuals, but we will proclaim the truth that people don’t have to be gay and lesbian. Offering a way out of a destructive, difficult lifestyle is loving, not prejudiced. But many people believe the lie that being gay is as unchangeable as being a person of color, when that is not true. It’s not easy to change, and many don’t succeed, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible. Ask people in Alcoholics Anonymous; they’ll tell you the same thing about achieving freedom from the bondage of alcohol.

I think it is unwise to equate a belief that “homosexual behavior is wrong” with the belief that it’s okay to judge people as inferior because of the color of their skin. There is a huge difference between a person’s chosen behavior and the unchosen manifestation of genetics.

You ask, “What is wrong with homosexuals?” Our answer is, they are relationally and sexually broken people for whom there is hope in Jesus Christ. Those who recognize their brokenness and seek help can find it. But this answer comes with a humble awareness that we are all broken people in one area or another–or several.

Thank you for writing.

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Greetings Mr. Williams,

I enjoyed your well-written and thoughtfully-considered article “Probe Answers Our E-Mail: Eating Animals.”

I urge you, therefore, to consider the Christian vegetarian position, developed in scholarly literature and now, finally, summarized on the Internet (www.ChristianVeg.com).

Like your own perspective, vegetarian Christians do not typically equate human and animal life and shun exploitation in order to be the best stewards we can be of the Creation God has made. Take a look for yourself and tell me what you think!

Some “food” for thought: you stated, “God provided a food chain involving plants and animals for man.” But much modern research in nutrition is showing animal protein to be hardly necessary for the proper development of humans. In fact, an animal-free (vegan) diet is shown to be optimum (for human performance, growth, etc.). It certainly avoids many risks related to cancer and especially heart disease (which it virtually eliminates)–the two biggest killers of North Americans!!!

Consider the facts for your self–I am genuinely interested in your perspective in light of this knowledge. As a starting point from this perspective, from an “outside” (i.e. nonvegetarian) source, see the American Dietetic Association at http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/index.html

Thanks for your time and consideration. I am looking forward to your response!

P.S. Relevant titles are listed on the bibliography on the website. See especially Is God a Vegetarian? by Richard Alan Young (student of Luke Timothy Johnson). And works by Stephen H. Webb, such as On God and Dogs: A Christian Theology of Compassion for Animals another title forthcoming from Oxford University Press this October.

Thank you for your recent E Mail concerning my article on “Eating Animals.”

I appreciate very much your contacting me, and I will make a note of your resources at ChristianVeg.com. I will be happy to refer your efforts to people who struggle with this issue, and I will explore your information myself as my dialogue with users continues.

I think there are many unanswered questions about this. For example, the human digestive system which parallels the herbivores (long) and not the carnivores (short) is an argument for your position. I have often pondered this.

On the other hand, if we take the Bible at its word, and recognizing the nutrition, disease, and environmental factors, etc., which you mentioned, I still do not think we can develop an exclusive doctrine of vegetarianism based on the Scriptures. The fact that God gives explicit instructions about which animals could and could not be eaten in the Hebrew community would indicate some meat eating is allowed.

I also turn to the New Testament and discover that Jesus celebrated Passover and ate portions of the slain lamb.

Further, there are passages in the New Testament (Peter’s vision in Acts 10, or Romans 14, for example) which indicate that this is a matter of conscience, indicating that some may choose to eat meat, and others who do not. But one is not supposed to judge the other, because God has sanctified both.

I will look forward to reviewing your material.

Warm Regards,

Jimmy Williams, Founder
Probe Ministries

Dear Probe,

I find your correspondence with the Christian vegetarian to be so interesting. . . It’s got to be the best dialogue I’ve seen on this topic in almost all of my 30+ years. I just wanted to add that I don’t think the choice to eat or not eat meat is one of just conscience. See, I quit meat (long before becoming a Christian) and had several problems physically/medically. I’m anemic, and not eating meat seemed to complicate the matter. I tried vitamins, eating more beans, nuts, fruits and vegetables (especially spinach) and still couldn’t raise my iron level to where it needed to be. . . The only thing that worked (and had I been honest with myself I would have heeded the strong cravings) was a 6-8 ounce piece of beef liver prior to my monthly cycle. I’ve since taken to eating meat again (although I’m still more a veggie eater) and I’ve been a lot healthier for it. I say all of this to say, that I and many others are not wired for life without flesh. The Lord’s intricate work will never be fully figured out as it regards the body (although we’ve seen some of the best medical advances known to man and that’s a good thing). . . Nothing could take the place of meat in my life. I’m not sure why this happened or why it’s still a necessity, but I would love to be meatless, I just wouldn’t be as healthy. I hope this all makes sense. I’m looking forward to the next installment regarding vegetarianism. Thanks and keep up the good work.

Well, your comment IS the next installment! <smile> As a lover of chicken and cheeseburgers, I freely admit to a pro-meat-eating bias. . . but even with my personal preferences aside, I think your experience adds an important element to the discussion. Vegetarianism can cause problems for women of childbearing age that men do not face, and this needs to be considered as we seek to be wise stewards of the bodies God gave us to use for His glory.

Thanks for writing!

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Sue, your work (I was just on your web page: www.probe.org/angels-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/) sounds like that of your so called “Bad” or “Ugly” angels. Helping people who want to leave homosexuality—you scare them to? What I’ve read here I’m afraid to say is almost complete utter bollocks. I laugh in your face and hope you do something worthwhile someday. I think the words in other religions are equally as valid as your “Holier than thou” book. Hey check out any books by Aleister Crowley and also: Jesus Lived in India by Holger Kersten. The Bible–Xeroxed for thousands of years, translated several times, usually (ie. King James) not very well. You are deluded, and I feel sorry for you. (only a little!) 🙂 Hey! Do the world a favor–lighten up and stop bible bashing.

Hello ________,

Have you ever gone to a restaurant and looked at a menu? You might have found items on the menu you weren’t interested in. My husband, for example, really dislikes fish and won’t ever order it. But no one in the restaurant tries to force the fish down his throat.

I understand that you think what I have written, and where I choose to devote my time, is utter foolishness to you, and that is your right. But it is available to those who are looking for wisdom and information from a Christian world view, and that is why I have it on the website.

You have a lot of opinions but not much in the way of supporting evidence. I, on the other hand, am such a convinced Christian because I have investigated the evidence, which you might find compelling if you ever approached it with an open mind.

Should you get to the point where you find your beliefs aren’t consistent with reality, and your life isn’t working for you. . . bookmark our website. There is truth and light here for those who seek it. For those who don’t—nobody’s forcing them to eat fish when what they want is tofu.

Cheerily,

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

My son is 15 years old. My husband and I have differing opinions on our son’s attraction to Britney Spears. Our son has requested tickets to her concert. The photographs I’ve seen are extremely sexual and seem pornographic. Her physical gyrations at the concerts are repulsive to me but I know my son loves it. It seems that this fixation on Britney is cultivating a strong appetite for more sexually explicit visual stimulations in the future. Share your thoughts or scripture please.

Dear ______,

I know what I think, but I thought it might be helpful to ask my son Kevin, a college sophomore home for a visit, how HE would answer your question.

First of all, he just shook his head and said “Keep that boy away from her!! She has incited so many guys to lust—I don’t care WHAT she says about being a virgin. She’s a tease.”

Then he sat down with his Bible and provided the following perspective:

Proverbs 5:3-5 says, “For the lips of the adulteress drip honey. . . her steps lead straight to the grave.” Verse 8 says, “Keep far away from her and do not go near the door of her house.” Kevin pointed out that Britney’s provocative dress and onstage behavior has invited so many men to lust after her that, according to the way the Lord Jesus equated lust with adultery in the mind, she could reasonably be considered an adulteress. Not literally, of course, but acting deliberately with the intent of making young men lust after her. And not very different from the woman warned against in Proverbs.

2 Timothy 2:22 says, “FLEE youthful lusts. . .” Don’t even let there be an opportunity, either in behavior or in one’s mind, to pursue unholy thoughts. Going to a Britney Spears concert is the exact opposite of fleeing youthful lusts.

And finally, Kevin brought up Proverbs 6:20 and 24-25: “My son, observe the commandment of your father and do not forsake the teaching of your mother . . . To keep you from the evil woman, From the smooth tongue of the adulteress. Do not desire her beauty in your heart, Not let her capture you with her eyelids.”

My mother’s heart is delighted that he put such emphasis on your (and my!) role in your son’s life. From that same mother’s perspective, I would put this in the same context as the kind of unpopular decisions we make all the time:

• “I realize you don’t want to brush your teeth and you don’t see any reason for it, butyou need to do it anyway.”
• “I realize you prefer pizza and chocolate cake to anything green, but it’s important for you to eat vegetables, and there will BE no pizza or chocolate cake until you eat the healthy stuff.”
• “I understand you hate pain and so do I, but you have to go to the doctor and get this booster shot, and I’m afraid you don’t have a choice in this.”

So it follows that we would say, “Yes, son, I know you think Britney Spears is the hottest thing since fire and this constitutes child abuse, but because I love you and want to protect you from your own flesh and hormones, you can’t go. End of discussion.”

Part of the value of God placing parents in a place of authority and protection over children is that we are able to see farther down the road than they are, and we can see the big picture of life better than they can. So we make them do things they don’t want to do, and we prevent them from doing things they really want to do, because acting in their best interests is more important to us than feeling popular and well-liked by our kids. We are no longer in high school; we can choose being wise and responsible over being popular.

But then there’s the other issue, which is that your husband and your son are apparently in agreement against your position and beliefs. I’m so sorry you have to deal with that!

But according to what the scripture says about our role as wives, we need to be in submission at the same time that we support our husbands by providing our God-given woman’s perspective. So all you can do is speak to your husband (ALONE) about how you think about this issue (and I would use the word “thoughts” rather than “feelings” since it’s a temptation for many men to dismiss women’s feelings as unreliable and not valuable. Not fair, I know, but it seems to be the way it is a lot of the time). The more logical and analytical you can be in sharing your perspective, the better the communication will probably be. Once your husband knows your position, leave the final decision up to him (which it should be anyway since he’s the dad) and turn over the situation into God’s hands. (This reminds me of a word of wisdom I heard the other day: If you can’t change something, release it.) If your son ends up going to the concert, pray for him! Pray that he will have eyes to see the truth about what Britney’s doing; pray that he will feel guilty; pray that he will have a growing discomfort with this kind of self-absorbed fleshly behavior. And if you haven’t read The Power of a Praying Parent by Stormie Omartian, get it and pray it!

I hope this helps.

Blessings on you,

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Is it a sin to smoke? I have always thought it was, with the caveat that the Bible does not expressly forbid it. However, if smoking is wrong, why isn’t eating high fat foods or candy wrong? I realize that these foods do provide something positive, but they are still bad for you.

It’s interesting that you should link smoking with eating junk foods. Probe field associate Todd Kappelman makes this connection often in discussing the “Christian” position on smoking, as he points out that people who condemn tobacco are often the first ones to pop Twinkies and Ding Dongs in their mouths and not think anything of it. Is one so much worse than the other?

So I asked Todd how, exactly, he would respond to your question, and took notes as he answered.

He said that there are three positions that can be taken concerning questionable behaviors, which are appropriate to the discussion of smoking.

First is prohibition: “I don’t, and you shouldn’t either.” Pedophilia and abortion, for instance, would fall in this category.

The second is abstinence: “I don’t, but I won’t say you shouldn’t.” For many people, drinking and watching TV fall in this category.

The third is moderation: “I do, but I also practice moderation in it.” For many other people, drinking and watching TV fall in THIS category. A number of Christians take this position in regard to smoking.

Moderation is a Biblical standard in non-moral issues: Phil. 4:5 says, “Let your moderation be known to all men.”

It’s interesting that the culture of North American Christianity has made smoking an unacceptable, “unChristian” behavior, while in Europe, many Christians don’t think twice about smoking, but consider American Christians’ materialism and women’s makeup unacceptable, “unChristian” behavior. So much of what we think is wrong is culturally bound.

Still, the issue of our bodies being a temple of the Holy Spirit needs to be taken into account. Is it possible to smoke to the glory of God? To bring us back to your original question, is it possible to eat fatty foods with empty calories to the glory of God? [When I had my husband Ray read this response, he added here that if you had nothing else to eat but fatty foods, they are still calories which would keep one alive, whereas nicotine is a drug without redeeming qualities, and there is nothing good that smoking does for you. Even junk food provides calories that may enable someone to live, but smoking only hurts you.]

Todd said that smoking is a non-moral issue. The rightness or wrongness of smoking wasn’t even discussed before the health consequences of tobacco were discovered. [Note: not all the Probe staff is convinced of this argument.]

Todd conceded that these arguments are all weak and sketchy, which is why there is danger in taking a hard stance. One person may have freedom from the Lord to smoke, especially pipes and cigars which have moderation built in (so I hear). Others may sense His leading to quit or stay away from tobacco in the first place.

The two best questions that each person should ask, I believe, are 1) Can I do this to the glory of God? -and- 2) Is it OK with the Lord for me to do this? It is entirely possible, given different cultures and groups of people we minister to, that He could give freedom to one person and tell another no.

I hope this helps!

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Is organ donation Biblical considering the resurrection of our bodies from the grave when Jesus comes back? Some people have argued that we cannot donate because our bodies need to be intact for the resurrection.

Think about how long it takes for bodies to decompose. Within a year, they can be nothing but bones. Think about the people who have been dead for a thousand years. Where are their bodies? By now even their bones have been completely broken down and recycled in the environment. And what about people who died at sea, or in fires?

In short, nobody’s body will be intact unless they died moments before Jesus comes back. God is more powerful than the decomposition of our bodies, so there is no reason to withhold on organ donation so we can “help God out” when it comes time for the resurrection. In fact, I would argue that organ donation is a reasonable fulfillment of the Lord Jesus’ comment that “Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends.” If self-sacrifice is a measure of love, then organ donation is a way to be loving even after death.

Hope this helps!

Sue Bohlin

Probe Ministries

Thank you for a great website and ministry. I also thank you for a place where we can come to get some help. So here is my question. I am talking to some homosexual men about gay theology. They are convinced that the relationship between Jonathon and David was a homosexual relationship.

Their basis for that is 1 Samuel 18:1-4, and 2 Samuel 1:26. I have tried appealing to context of these verses, the fact that both these men have wives and children, and the simple fact that even if this was true, it doesn’t change God’s law one iota. All to no avail. I have been attempting to do a word study on the word love, as it is used here, and in a heterosexual union, to see if there are any differences in usage, but my resources are limited, and I have not been able to pin anything down yet. I was wondering if you could help me at all in this area, and any other approach you think may be useful.

I am cognizant of the fact that no matter what I say, it may do no good, as it appears their minds are made up. However before I give up, I would like to cover as many of the bases as I can.

The burden of proof to make David and Jonathan’s relationship more than friendship is on your gay friends. There is nothing in the text to indicate there was anything more than a godly, committed friendship between two men who deeply loved each other. You aren’t missing anything by reading a translation because there’s nothing hidden in the Hebrew.

However, there is also nothing you can do to dissuade them from reading what they want to find into what’s not there. The heart’s capacity for deception is far greater than we give ourselves credit for. You CAN say, “You are reading a gay relationship into the text but it’s not there, and there’s nothing I can say to make you change your mind because you want it so badly to be true. We’ll both find out in the end, won’t we? In the meantime, I am praying that God will show you the truth.”

It’s frustrating, I know. But you’re right, and they’re not, because they are caught in spiritual deception and what author Joe Dallas calls in his book of the same name “A Strong Delusion.”

I hope this helps.

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Dear Sue,

Recently, I have been thinking about piercing my belly button. I am 13. And you have to be 14, which I will be turning in a couple of months. My mom strongly disagrees, for reasons which I don’t agree with. She thinks it is radical. I think piercing anything on your face is radical. Or your tongue. There are others. But I think your belly button is pretty normal. She was also worried about the health issues.

Some of my friends got theirs pierced, so I want to see how it goes with them. She also said to pray about it. Which I haven’t yet. But I went to Mind Games this weekend, and they mentioned going to Probe.org for questions. So here I am. And I would like to know your opinion on it. I read your article “What About Body Piercing?” but you had only mentioned the tongue piercing, that you disagreed with. But I’d like to know about the belly button.

I’m so glad you went to Mind Games this weekend!! I wish I’d been there to be able to talk to you in person.

I have a question. Why do you want to get your belly button pierced? What’s your motivation? Usually people do it to show it off, but there’s nothing modest about a lady displaying her stomach. Can you show off your body to the glory of God? I don’t believe so. (The place to show off one’s body is for one’s spouse, in private. Check out the Song of Solomon in the Bible.) You would be drawing attention to yourself, not TO Him or FOR Him. We are called to modesty (1 Tim. 2:9), and the whole navel-piercing fad is anti-modesty.

Secondly, lots of people have problems with infection. Body piercing is not healthy, and God wants us to be good stewards of the bodies He gave us.

Third, God’s will is that you submit to your parents until you are on your own as an adult. Parents have a different perspective that comes from having lived longer, and that includes seeing the consequences of people’s choices that are unseen at the time of their choice. If your mom says no, then I can definitely tell you that it is not God’s will for you to pierce your navel and you will be sinning if you do.

I hope this helps!

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

On your “answering email” web page “God Made Me Gay” I read this question:

“Thanks for your answer! I have prayed to the Lord to make me straight! Why does he not answer?”
Your answer was long, but this was the core of it:

“Well, God would say to him, ‘Dear one, that’s what I intended you to be all along, and I still do. But we’re going to have to undo the damage that sin has caused in your life. There are matters of generational sin, unhealthy patterns of family relating—we need to refashion your life into the pattern of My original intent.”

The problem that I see with this is scriptural. Let’s take a look at what Jesus said:

“And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” John 14:13-14

I am sure that the person who asked you the question has made a prayer like this one:

“God, please make me heterosexual. I ask this in Jesus’s name so that my life may bring glory to you.”

I think this sounds like a fair thing to ask of God, don’t you? And, according to Jesus’s words, he should do it, as he said that we WILL DO ANYTHING that one asks in his name. As it happens for many gay Christians who hurt and struggle, God does not answer this prayer.

Your excuse for God’s failure is that “[t]here are matters of generational sin, unhealthy patterns of family relating” which, apparently, defy God’s omnipotent power and boundless love and mercy.

My question for you is, which chapter and verse in the Bible state that God will not give someone heterosexuality if they ask for it in Jesus’s name because there are matters of generational sin, unhealthy patterns of family relating?

Great question.

“God, please make me heterosexual. I ask this in Jesus’s name so that my life may bring glory to you.”

I think you left out an important word. Often, what people really mean when they pray this is, ‘”God, please make me heterosexual NOW.”

I think this sounds like a fair thing to ask of God, don’t you? And, according to Jesus’s words, he should do it, as he said that we WILL DO ANYTHING that one asks in his name. As it happens for many gay Christians who hurt and struggle, God does not answer this prayer.

Jesus didn’t say anything about His timetable, though. He DOES answer this prayer, and has for many people, but He doesn’t answer it overnight.

I think the “Please, please let me wake up straight” prayer (which I know has been prayed by so very many) is in the same category as prayers like, “Oh God, I am so afraid of this upcoming surgery/French test/job review. Please let me wake up and it will all be over and behind me.” Or, “Dear God, I hate being 10 and ugly. Please make me be 25 and all grown up and beautiful and happy.” There’s nothing wrong with the request, and God invites us to come to Him with every desire of our hearts, but He doesn’t promise to give us what we ask for within minutes or hours of the prayer.

Your excuse for God’s failure is that “[t]here are matters of generational sin, unhealthy patterns of family relating” which, apparently, defy God’s omnipotent power and boundless love and mercy.

I would suggest God is not failing. I would suggest that the issue is unrealistic expectations–that God should act like Tinkerbell and sprinkle magic pixie dust and make everything OK. But gender identity, sexual orientation, and a weakness for emotionally dependent relationships are complex issues that can’t be “fixed” overnight.

In fact, one of my dearest friends, a former gay activist, had a most unexpected experience with God. Within moments of trusting Christ, she heard the voice of God thunder in her spirit: “YOU ARE NOT GAY!” She did discover that she wasn’t drawn to women as sex objects like she had been before, but within a couple of months of her conversion she found herself in a short-lived lesbian relationship. She was now a Christian, she knew God had said she wasn’t gay, but she didn’t have anything to work with except her old ways of relating to people and her old ways of making life work on her own. She wasn’t attracted to her new girlfriend the way she would have been before, but she was so desperate for connection and to feel loved that she entered into the only kind of relationship she knew how to have: one that was mutually exploitative.

It’s been several years since that experience, and she has since learned how to have friendships with women in her new church that are about giving, not getting, that are holy and glorifying to God, but it’s been hard work to get to the place she’s at, and she’s still having to work through all the garbage from her life that she brought into the Kingdom with her. She’s known since the time she became a Christian that she wasn’t gay, because God told her she wasn’t gay, but she also didn’t know how NOT to be gay, and learning takes time.

Were God to do a miracle that made a struggler into a non-struggler, he or she wouldn’t know who they were or how they got there. It would be like waking up with amnesia and discovering one was married to a stranger, employed in a job they didn’t have the skills for, and living in a city they’d never been in before.

My friend complained one day to me that she wasn’t attracted to women anymore, but she sure wasn’t attracted to men and she SURE didn’t know how to relate to either women OR men now because she’d had this major emotional earthquake that really complicated things. (Interestingly, as she developed her relationship with Christ and He started doing some hard work in her soul, she started reporting an attraction to certain kinds of men. It’s been like doing junior high as a 35-year-old.)

My question for you is, which chapter and verse in the Bible state that God will not give someone heterosexuality if they ask for it in Jesus’s name because there are matters of generational sin, unhealthy patterns of family relating?

Two responses: first, if you literally mean this, then I’m afraid you don’t understand how to read the Bible. We look at principles in the Bible, in the context of everything else that it says, to figure out what God’ s intention is. Otherwise, you end up with questions like, “Which chapter and verse tell us not to have abortions?” and “Which chapter and verse prohibit child abuse?” There are no such chapters and verses, but we can still discern what God wants us to know.

Secondly, when someone asks for heterosexuality, God’s response would be, “I already made you heterosexual. ‘In the beginning, God created them male and female.’ The problem is that you believe lies about yourself. You have an incorrect understanding of your identity: you are not homosexual, you are My child who struggles with same-sex feelings and the legacy of sinful behavior. It takes time to unravel those lies and misunderstandings and the destruction of sin so that you OWN the truth about yourself. It takes time to develop new habits to replace the sinful old ones. Walk with Me, surrender to Me, and let Me tell you who you really are.”

I hope this helps.

Sue Bohlin

© 2005 Probe Ministries.

I came across your website when looking for articles on Edgar Cayce. I then noticed your feelings towards homosexuals and me being a homosexual took insult to that. Now you state the bible is in fact the holy word, meaning it’s the word of God. God is perfect therefore, the bible is without errors or fault. Now I am not going to able to quote verse from verse, but I do know some things about the bible. In fact I went to parochial school for thirteen years. I know that in the bible there is a verse which states, man shouldn’t lie with other men, that is immoral. But I also know, that in the bible the very same statements we use in heterosexual marriage today, to love one another through sickness and health until death due us part, is also, used between two women in the bible. I believe it was Ruth and someone else, if you want I could research the specific verse and names.

I also know, there is a paragraph in Samuel 2 I believe, regarding the love held between David and Saul’s son Paul? I don’t know the name. I do remember the verse stating, how David stripped in front of Paul, David kissing Paul and how the love David held for Paul was greater than any other love he could hold for a woman. Now you’re going to probably respond to these statements by saying, it’s all how we interpret what God is telling us. How nothing can be specified towards condoning homosexuality. You’re also probably going to say that those acts were the acts of David and Paul not of God himself. When God made the bible, don’t you think he made it so that generations could understand his underlying meaning that no matter who or what his words came into contact with, his underlying meaning would stand out bold over anything else and that no matter what corruption or falsification may have occurred throughout the time, during the creation of the printing press, in translations of verses to different languages and etc.

Don’t you feel that God himself being so against homosexuality as you say, would not include promoting verses in the bible of homosexuality? And if this sin was so immoral, don’t you think God would have condemned it in more than one or two verses? That considering possibly ten percent of the population of the world is homosexual and probably more due to society’s prejudices. Wouldn’t he have driven a stronger message than just one or two vague paragraphs condemning it? One or two paragraphs that could have been misinterpreted or mistranslated. I was wondering what you feel about those two stories?

I’m so glad you wrote; I hope I can clear up some misconceptions you might have about what the Bible actually says about homosexuality and same-sex love.

But I also know, that in the bible the very same statements we use in heterosexual marriage today, to love one another through sickness and health until death due us part, is also, used between two women in the bible. I believe it was Ruth and someone else, if you want I could research the specific verse and names.

Apparently, you’ve been listening at some weddings you’ve been to! <smile> You’re right, there is a verse from the book of Ruth that is often quoted at weddings, Ruth 1:16–“But Ruth said, ‘Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.’”

This is unfortunately a good example of people wrenching a great-sounding verse out of context and using it despite what it meant when Ruth said it. Probably not too many brides know that these words are the promise of a young widow to her mother-in-law! 🙂

But as you can see, this woman’s pledge of loyalty is not the same as the “for better or for worse” wedding vows we hear at weddings. The fact that it’s heard at weddings doesn’t mean that Ruth and her mother-in-law had a lesbian relationship. In fact, the book is about a love story between Ruth and her future husband Boaz. (Their son was Obed, whose son was Jesse, whose son was David, which brings us to your next question.)

I also know, there is a paragraph in Samuel 2 I believe. Regarding the love held between David and Saul’s son Paul? I don’t know the name. I do remember the verse stating, how David stripped in front of Paul, David kissing Paul and how the love David held for Paul was greater than any other love he could hold for a woman.

Good call on the location of the Samuel 2 passage; you’re very close. There are actually three passages you’re thinking of here.

In 2 Samuel 1:26, David is lamenting over the death of his best friend Jonathan: “I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful than the love of women.” I am familiar with the assessment of this marvelous statement of inspiringly loyal friendship and love as a homosexual relationship, but the text doesn’t support it. There is nothing in the stories of David and Jonathan’s friendship that even hints at a homosexual relationship. But the friendships of men who have shared intense experiences can indeed be in a very different, very wonderful category than husband-wife relationships. Men who have fought together in battle, for example, often report a type of closeness with each other that some never experienced with their wives because it was a different kind of love and relationship.

In 1 Samuel 18:4, “Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, including his sword and his bow and his belt.” This was not a sexual disrobing; this was Jonathan’s (the king’s son) way of honoring his dear friend David by giving him his royal robe, his armor, his sword, his bow and his belt to show him that he believed David to be a greater warrior than he was. He probably also knew that David had been anointed the future king of Israel, and this was his way of saying “I’m on your side, David!”

Also, in 1 Samuel 20:41, it says, “When the lad was gone, David rose from the south side and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed three times. And they kissed each other and wept together, but David wept the more.” This is a very emotional farewell scene where Jonathan is sending David away because he found out that his father, King Saul, has determined to kill him. The fact that the men kissed each other is not indicative of an erotic kiss, but the way that men greeted each other and said goodbye in that eastern culture. It is still the same way today. Surely you have seen some of the recent video footage of Middle Eastern men greeting each other by kissing on the cheeks (or sometimes an “air kiss”).

If you read the story of David and Jonathan from start to finish, I think you will find that it is the story of a godly, warm friendship between two men, not a homosexual relationship. There just isn’t anything there in the text to warrant such a reading.

When God made the bible, don’t you think he made it so that generations could understand his underlying meaning that no matter who or what his words came into contact with, his underlying meaning would stand out bold over anything else and that no matter what corruption or falsification may have occurred throughout the time, during the creation of the printing press, in translations of verses to different languages and etc.

Well said, and yes I do believe that. However, to quote Paul Simon in “The Sound of Silence,” “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” This is particularly true of the Bible, I believe. It’s not that hard to figure out what God means; the Bible is not written in difficult, mystical language. When it’s poetry, it’s poetic, but the important doctrinal statements and commands are written in very clear terms.

Don’t you feel that God himself being so against homosexuality as you say, would not include promoting verses in the bible of homosexuality.

Yes, I do, and thus the burden is on those looking for verses condoning homosexuality to find them without twisting certain words out of context. Including cultural context, such as the eastern custom of men kissing.

And if this sin was so immoral, don’t you think God would have condemned it in more than one or two verses.

Well, actually, as a parent, when I told my children something was wrong, I meant it the first time. How many times does God have to say something to make it true? Just once, I would suggest.

However, He does condemn homosexual behavior in more than one or two verses:

Old Testament

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom–both young and old–surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them’ (Gen. 19:4-5).

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable (Lev. 18:22).

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads (Lev. 20:13).

New Testament

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. . . . For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. . . . Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. . . . Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Ro. 1:18-19, 21, 24, 26-27).

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral not idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders . . . will inherit the kingdom of God (I Cor. 6:9-10).

… just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

… realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching… (1 Tim. 1:9-10)

One or two paragraphs that could have been misinterpreted or mistranslated.

I’m afraid the burden of proof would be on you to come up with the correct interpretation or translation. Hebrew and Greek are not extinct languages that make it difficult or impossible to check what the original was. The Bible is very internally consistent about homosexuality, in both Old and New Testaments. It is not God’s intent, which is holy heterosexuality. Jesus Himself even said in Matthew 19:5 that going back to the creation account, God’s intent was that “a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

I am familiar with the argument that the passages against homosexuality have been misinterpreted or mistranslated, but it’s interesting that the proponents of this view don’t have any trouble accepting “thou shalt not kill” and “thou shalt not steal.” Only the passages that they don’t like. Which is why I think we should keep in mind the insight of Paul Mooris who wrote in Shadow of Sodom, “But if I were a Christian homosexual, I think this one question would disturb me most: am I trying to interpret Scripture in the light of my proclivity, or should I interpret my proclivity in the light of Scripture?”

That considering possibly ten percent of the population of the world is homosexual and probably more due to society’s prejudices.

Population statistics are revealing that it’s more like 2-3 percent. Alfred Kinsey’s statistics are not reliable, but the 10% statistic has been repeated so often people believe it’s true. I would also suggest that someone’s self-identification as homosexual is not dependent on society’s prejudices. No one CHOOSES to be homosexual; erotic same-sex attraction is something they discover.

I’m glad you wrote, ______. I hope this gives you some food for thought. You might not be familiar with the fact that homosexuality is a condition that can be changed. Thousands of people are now former homosexuals. For a difference perspective, may I suggest you read my article “Can Homosexuals Change?”

The Lord Jesus loves you very much, and He accepts you just as you are. But He loves us too much to leave us there. He loves to change us into who He created us to be.

Warm blessings to you,

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries