I came across your website when looking for articles on Edgar Cayce. I then noticed your feelings towards homosexuals and me being a homosexual took insult to that. Now you state the bible is in fact the holy word, meaning it’s the word of God. God is perfect therefore, the bible is without errors or fault. Now I am not going to able to quote verse from verse, but I do know some things about the bible. In fact I went to parochial school for thirteen years. I know that in the bible there is a verse which states, man shouldn’t lie with other men, that is immoral. But I also know, that in the bible the very same statements we use in heterosexual marriage today, to love one another through sickness and health until death due us part, is also, used between two women in the bible. I believe it was Ruth and someone else, if you want I could research the specific verse and names.

I also know, there is a paragraph in Samuel 2 I believe, regarding the love held between David and Saul’s son Paul? I don’t know the name. I do remember the verse stating, how David stripped in front of Paul, David kissing Paul and how the love David held for Paul was greater than any other love he could hold for a woman. Now you’re going to probably respond to these statements by saying, it’s all how we interpret what God is telling us. How nothing can be specified towards condoning homosexuality. You’re also probably going to say that those acts were the acts of David and Paul not of God himself. When God made the bible, don’t you think he made it so that generations could understand his underlying meaning that no matter who or what his words came into contact with, his underlying meaning would stand out bold over anything else and that no matter what corruption or falsification may have occurred throughout the time, during the creation of the printing press, in translations of verses to different languages and etc.

Don’t you feel that God himself being so against homosexuality as you say, would not include promoting verses in the bible of homosexuality? And if this sin was so immoral, don’t you think God would have condemned it in more than one or two verses? That considering possibly ten percent of the population of the world is homosexual and probably more due to society’s prejudices. Wouldn’t he have driven a stronger message than just one or two vague paragraphs condemning it? One or two paragraphs that could have been misinterpreted or mistranslated. I was wondering what you feel about those two stories?

I’m so glad you wrote; I hope I can clear up some misconceptions you might have about what the Bible actually says about homosexuality and same-sex love.

But I also know, that in the bible the very same statements we use in heterosexual marriage today, to love one another through sickness and health until death due us part, is also, used between two women in the bible. I believe it was Ruth and someone else, if you want I could research the specific verse and names.

Apparently, you’ve been listening at some weddings you’ve been to! <smile> You’re right, there is a verse from the book of Ruth that is often quoted at weddings, Ruth 1:16–“But Ruth said, ‘Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.’”

This is unfortunately a good example of people wrenching a great-sounding verse out of context and using it despite what it meant when Ruth said it. Probably not too many brides know that these words are the promise of a young widow to her mother-in-law! 🙂

But as you can see, this woman’s pledge of loyalty is not the same as the “for better or for worse” wedding vows we hear at weddings. The fact that it’s heard at weddings doesn’t mean that Ruth and her mother-in-law had a lesbian relationship. In fact, the book is about a love story between Ruth and her future husband Boaz. (Their son was Obed, whose son was Jesse, whose son was David, which brings us to your next question.)

I also know, there is a paragraph in Samuel 2 I believe. Regarding the love held between David and Saul’s son Paul? I don’t know the name. I do remember the verse stating, how David stripped in front of Paul, David kissing Paul and how the love David held for Paul was greater than any other love he could hold for a woman.

Good call on the location of the Samuel 2 passage; you’re very close. There are actually three passages you’re thinking of here.

In 2 Samuel 1:26, David is lamenting over the death of his best friend Jonathan: “I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful than the love of women.” I am familiar with the assessment of this marvelous statement of inspiringly loyal friendship and love as a homosexual relationship, but the text doesn’t support it. There is nothing in the stories of David and Jonathan’s friendship that even hints at a homosexual relationship. But the friendships of men who have shared intense experiences can indeed be in a very different, very wonderful category than husband-wife relationships. Men who have fought together in battle, for example, often report a type of closeness with each other that some never experienced with their wives because it was a different kind of love and relationship.

In 1 Samuel 18:4, “Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, including his sword and his bow and his belt.” This was not a sexual disrobing; this was Jonathan’s (the king’s son) way of honoring his dear friend David by giving him his royal robe, his armor, his sword, his bow and his belt to show him that he believed David to be a greater warrior than he was. He probably also knew that David had been anointed the future king of Israel, and this was his way of saying “I’m on your side, David!”

Also, in 1 Samuel 20:41, it says, “When the lad was gone, David rose from the south side and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed three times. And they kissed each other and wept together, but David wept the more.” This is a very emotional farewell scene where Jonathan is sending David away because he found out that his father, King Saul, has determined to kill him. The fact that the men kissed each other is not indicative of an erotic kiss, but the way that men greeted each other and said goodbye in that eastern culture. It is still the same way today. Surely you have seen some of the recent video footage of Middle Eastern men greeting each other by kissing on the cheeks (or sometimes an “air kiss”).

If you read the story of David and Jonathan from start to finish, I think you will find that it is the story of a godly, warm friendship between two men, not a homosexual relationship. There just isn’t anything there in the text to warrant such a reading.

When God made the bible, don’t you think he made it so that generations could understand his underlying meaning that no matter who or what his words came into contact with, his underlying meaning would stand out bold over anything else and that no matter what corruption or falsification may have occurred throughout the time, during the creation of the printing press, in translations of verses to different languages and etc.

Well said, and yes I do believe that. However, to quote Paul Simon in “The Sound of Silence,” “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” This is particularly true of the Bible, I believe. It’s not that hard to figure out what God means; the Bible is not written in difficult, mystical language. When it’s poetry, it’s poetic, but the important doctrinal statements and commands are written in very clear terms.

Don’t you feel that God himself being so against homosexuality as you say, would not include promoting verses in the bible of homosexuality.

Yes, I do, and thus the burden is on those looking for verses condoning homosexuality to find them without twisting certain words out of context. Including cultural context, such as the eastern custom of men kissing.

And if this sin was so immoral, don’t you think God would have condemned it in more than one or two verses.

Well, actually, as a parent, when I told my children something was wrong, I meant it the first time. How many times does God have to say something to make it true? Just once, I would suggest.

However, He does condemn homosexual behavior in more than one or two verses:

Old Testament

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom–both young and old–surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them’ (Gen. 19:4-5).

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable (Lev. 18:22).

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads (Lev. 20:13).

New Testament

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. . . . For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. . . . Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. . . . Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Ro. 1:18-19, 21, 24, 26-27).

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral not idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders . . . will inherit the kingdom of God (I Cor. 6:9-10).

… just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

… realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching… (1 Tim. 1:9-10)

One or two paragraphs that could have been misinterpreted or mistranslated.

I’m afraid the burden of proof would be on you to come up with the correct interpretation or translation. Hebrew and Greek are not extinct languages that make it difficult or impossible to check what the original was. The Bible is very internally consistent about homosexuality, in both Old and New Testaments. It is not God’s intent, which is holy heterosexuality. Jesus Himself even said in Matthew 19:5 that going back to the creation account, God’s intent was that “a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

I am familiar with the argument that the passages against homosexuality have been misinterpreted or mistranslated, but it’s interesting that the proponents of this view don’t have any trouble accepting “thou shalt not kill” and “thou shalt not steal.” Only the passages that they don’t like. Which is why I think we should keep in mind the insight of Paul Mooris who wrote in Shadow of Sodom, “But if I were a Christian homosexual, I think this one question would disturb me most: am I trying to interpret Scripture in the light of my proclivity, or should I interpret my proclivity in the light of Scripture?”

That considering possibly ten percent of the population of the world is homosexual and probably more due to society’s prejudices.

Population statistics are revealing that it’s more like 2-3 percent. Alfred Kinsey’s statistics are not reliable, but the 10% statistic has been repeated so often people believe it’s true. I would also suggest that someone’s self-identification as homosexual is not dependent on society’s prejudices. No one CHOOSES to be homosexual; erotic same-sex attraction is something they discover.

I’m glad you wrote, ______. I hope this gives you some food for thought. You might not be familiar with the fact that homosexuality is a condition that can be changed. Thousands of people are now former homosexuals. For a difference perspective, may I suggest you read my article “Can Homosexuals Change?”

The Lord Jesus loves you very much, and He accepts you just as you are. But He loves us too much to leave us there. He loves to change us into who He created us to be.

Warm blessings to you,

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Is it wrong for a Christian to copy or burn CDs? I have heard conflicting views on the subject and I was hoping to get some help here.

If you’re copying a CD so that another person doesn’t have to buy it, then you are taking money from the artist/software writer that rightfully belongs to him or her. It’s stealing. If you’re burning a copy of something you bought for your own backup purposes, then you haven’t hurt anyone because you paid for it.

The issue is, If I didn’t have a CD burner, would I have to buy the CD to get what I want? If the answer is yes, and you’re using the equipment to avoid paying for it, then it’s wrong.

Dr. J. Budziszewski has a wonderful column in Boundless e-zine on this: http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0000783.cfm

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

I am not a homosexual, nor do I know any open homosexuals. Yet, I have felt God’s call to study this issue very carefully. Though at times in this essay, I may use strong language, I am very open to reproof–which is partly how I got to my position. I beg for us both to prayerfully submit ourselves to God’s will.

The debate over homosexuality is posed to divide the Christian church. However, a careful reading of Scripture reveals no condemnation of biological attraction to one’s own gender (or of two men or two women marrying), and all Christians, bearing in mind the second greatest commandment, must therefore fight against untruth and prejudice against homosexuality.

Especially if one has already become deeply convinced to think that homosexuality is worthy of condemnation, this paper will not be convincing. Yet, if read in a group that discusses it calmly or read as if dialoguing with one’s own thoughts, this paper should be very convincing. “Therefore, consider carefully how you listen.”

I am using the word “homosexual” to mean a person biologically attracted to his or her own gender–not a merely person who engages in same gender sex. Perhaps the majority of science will be overturned and such persons will be shown not to exist. I cannot operate under such an assumption however, and the burden of proof lies squarely on those would think in such a manner.

[Long commentary on various scriptures edited out]

You base your argument on what I respectfully submit is a faulty premise: “a careful reading of Scripture reveals no condemnation of biological attraction to one’s own gender.”

I have two questions for you.

#1. Please point me to the empirical evidence for a biological basis for homosexuality. I have been studying this issue for several years and cannot find any. (I am already familiar with the studies by LeVay, Bailey and Pillard.) I would be especially interested in reading an explanation for the twin studies where one identical twin identifies as gay and the other as heterosexual. As Dr. Neil Whitehead points out, “If an identical twin has same-sex attraction the chances the co-twin has it are only about 11% for men and 14% for women.” If homosexuality were genetic, the correlation would be 100%.

#2. Why is it important for you to bring your agenda about homosexuality to the scriptures, instead of allowing the scripture to address the issue of homosexuality? Whenever someone says (basically) “Yes, this is what it says, but that’s not what it means,” I look for a presupposition that affects the way they look at the text.

Thank you.

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

You point out that the Old Testament forbids homosexuality. Yes it does, but Jesus’ teachings in the gospels have superseded the primitive teachings of the O.T. For example in Matthew 5:17-34 Jesus systematically rips apart some of the most important Jewish laws. When he says he has come to fulfil the Law, he is not talking about the Pharisees’ law, he is talking about God’s Law. People who say that Jesus agreed with the Jewish laws are completely wrong– even an idiot can see this.

People who practice homosexuality in their own homes, with each others’ consent are not breaking the law “love your neighbor as yourself.” They are not harming anyone! What is harmful though is the constant attack by you so-called Christians on them which provides gay people with much misery. I am not homosexual myself — the reason why I am sticking up for gay people is because I am a Christian. Wake up to the fact that the law of loving your neighbor has replaced the O.T. laws.

Your essays clearly show you have some degree of intelligence — why can’t you see that Jesus’ law is in contradiction to the law of the Jewish scriptures?

Hello _____, Thanks for your e-mail. I will try to respond to your comments as best I can.

You point out that the O.T. forbids homosexuality. Yes it does, but Jesus’ teachings in the gospels have superseded the primitive teachings of the O.T. For example in Matthew 5:17-34 Jesus systematically rips apart some of the most important Jewish laws. When he says he has come to fulfil the law, he is not talking about the Pharisee’s law, he is talking about God’s law. People who say that Jesus agreed with the Jewish laws are completely wrong – even an idiot can see this.

I’m sorry, I fail to see which laws Jesus is ripping apart in this passage. What I see is that He is going beyond the LETTER of the law, to the SPIRIT of the law, to make it abundantly clear that Yahweh is concerned with the motives and intentions of the heart and not merely surface obedience. If a person holds to the SPIRIT (or intention) of the law, he will also obey the LETTER of it. This is a long way from “ripping apart” the law.

I do agree with you, however, that the Lord Jesus did not agree with the Jewish laws that were like fences built around the inspired laws of God, but which were not, in themselves, laws of God. Those laws don’t appear in the Bible though. The commandments against practicing homosexuality, however, were not Jewish laws, but God’s laws.

People who practice homosexuality in their own homes, with each others consent are not breaking the law “love your neighbor as yourself.” They are not harming anyone!

Morality aside, ask any physician how healthy the homosexual lifestyle is. Ask the Center for Disease Control how healthy the homosexual lifestyle is. Ask counselors who are trying to help people leave the homosexual lifestyle and get beyond their painful homosexual desires. Talk to the parents, siblings, spouses and children of practicing homosexuals and ask if they are not harming anyone.

Let’s put the homosexual issue aside and substitute another deviant sexual lifestyle. Do you think you would write to someone and say, “Men who are attracted to pre-school children and entice them into their homes to have sex with them, are not breaking the law ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ In fact, these men are loving these children–isn’t that admirable? They are not harming anyone! The men are enjoying the sex, and the children are enjoying the attention…and what child doesn’t enjoy attention?”

I would suggest that you would never say something like this, and I would further suggest that the reason such a large portion of our culture has decided that sex between two men using parts of their bodies that were intended for excretion, not sex, is acceptable, is a result of a carefully-planned disinformation campaign. It is not a result of something normal and natural and God-intended.

What is harmful though is the constant attack by you so-called Christians on them which provides gay people with much misery. I am not homosexual myself — the reason why I am sticking up for gay people is because I am a Christian.

It’s interesting to me that you seem so devoted to the issue of “love,” yet do not hesitate to cast aspersions on my relationship with Jesus Christ by calling me a “so-called Christian.” This doesn’t strike me as very loving, or am I missing something?

I’m also wondering if you read my entire article, or just bits and pieces. Because I strongly believe that the responsible Christian response to the homosexual movement is one of deep compassion for the individuals caught in unnatural, unfortunate desires while not compromising on what God has said about the homosexual ACT. In fact, I have received e-mail accusing me of “sticking up for gay people,” to use your term.

People like me who speak out, agreeing with what God has said about homosexuality, are not causing all the misery gays experience. That happens long before someone even comes out or tells their first friend of these unwelcome feelings and attractions. There is misery inherent in a homosexual orientation; it means something is wrong, in the same way that there’s something wrong with someone who is sexually attracted to small children. And that’s why these feelings need to be dealt with and healed, not celebrated as something good and beautiful.

(I will admit, with a great deal of sadness, that there has been a terrible amount of judgmental condescension from Christians towards homosexuals, that has, indeed, caused grief. There is no excuse for not making a distinction between the desires, which are wrong but unasked-for, and the people experiencing them. I know God does.)

Wake up to the fact that the law of loving your neighbor has replaced the O.T. laws.

No, the law of loving your neighbor sums up the O.T. laws. At least the moral ones. If you keep all the moral laws of the Old Testament, you will be demonstrating love for your neighbor. Not stealing, telling the truth, not charging usurious interest against your neighbor, and keeping all sexual activity within marriage are all demonstrations of love for one’s neighbor.

The law against homosexual actions is part of the moral code; the consequence of death by stoning is part of the civil code, which controlled how the people of God were to conduct their lives in a culture where God was their head and not a law-making king. It makes sense for the civil code to be done away with, because the people of Israel are no longer living under that system. But God has not done away with a single commandment of His moral code, because the moral laws are rooted in the person and character of God Himself.

What is it that makes homosexual activity sin? The fact that God has ordained sex to be the glue that holds husband and wife together. Sex is so powerful that it is only safe within the confines of marriage, because it acts like superglue between two souls. Tear them apart and you have broken hearts. So why not make homosexual marriage legal? Because Ephesians 5 says that marriage goes beyond merely a civil convenience; it is an eloquent word picture that God ordained to help us understand the amazing unity within diversity of Christ and the church. Men and women are so different that it’s a mystical union when they come together in marriage. Man and man coming together, or woman and woman, does not provide the dynamic difference that mirrors the “otherness” of Christ-and-the-church. Gay relationships are sameness, not otherness. So gay marriage can never be blessed by God because marriage means far more than simply living together, even having sex together. It’s supposed to teach us something about God.

Your essay clearly shows you have some degree of intelligence – why can’t you see that Jesus’ law is in contradiction to the law of the Jewish scriptures?

Well, I do thank you for the compliment <smile>. . .I don’t see it because it’s not there. Have you read the whole New Testament? How about just the four gospels? If you look at what the Lord Jesus taught, one thing you’ll see is that He mentioned two things people often overlook. One is references to Sodom and Gomorrah as places of judgment, which the Bible makes clear were judged for homosexual sin. Jesus believed in Sodom and Gomorrah, and He believed in the judgment they received. In fact, He was involved in sending the judgment. The other thing is His references to fornication, which means any sex outside of marriage. All homosexual sex is fornication. Even if there is some sort of religious ceremony, it’s still fornication because you can’t get around God’s restrictions on marriage, which is one man and one woman. God is not impressed by our ceremonies when they disregard what He has established.

A lot of people like to talk about Jesus’ law of love; what’s intriguing to me is how they never balance it with the fact that Jesus also talked about holiness, and purity, and justice. While it’s true that many homosexuals love each other, that kind of love still falls short of God’s standard of holiness. There’s nothing holy about what God has called an abomination. That is not “the law of Jewish scriptures” as if they were written by scribes and Pharisees; that is the very word breathed by God Himself. There is no contradiction between the Old and New Testament when it comes to what is moral, what reflects the character of God. Homosexual sin is not love as God defines it, regardless of how the culture tries to persuade people it is.

Thank you for reading this far. I hope what I’ve said gives you something to think about. I also pray that the Lord gives you a higher esteem for the ENTIRE Word of God. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of it would pass away. That’s a pretty high value on it. May we all value His word so highly.

Respectfully,

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Is it right for churches to require a formal membership, with membership vows? I don’t see this present in the N.T. I am committed to my local church but am not sure about coming into membership.

 
 
You are correct in observing that the New Testament does not mention this issue. For what it’s worth, my own opinion is that there’s nothing wrong (in the sense of sinful or immoral) with a local body requiring formal membership. Many churches do require a formal membership before allowing people to participate in voting on matters affecting the church, or serving in positions of church leadership, etc. Oftentimes, the reasoning here is that only people committed to this local body of believers and in agreement with the church’s doctrinal statement, etc., should be allowed to share in the leadership decisions of the church. Since most local churches have some unbelievers, or uncommitted attenders, membership requirements help prevent those who might not be qualified to share in church leadership decisions from helping to make such decisions. Thus, for many churches, membership requirements may serve a sort of safeguard for doctrinal purity and godly decision-making.

Of course, a church should never refuse to minister to those who decline becoming members. And there may be some (like yourself) who are deeply committed to the church, but do not wish to embrace formal membership. The NT does not require one to take formal membership vows to a local church, etc. All who put their faith in the person and work of Christ are members of the universal church, even if they don’t want to become formal members of a local church. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with such a decision.

Thus, as long as the motives for doing so are good and pure, I don’t think it’s wrong for a church to have a formal membership procedure. However, I also don’t think it’s wrong for a true believer in Christ to freely choose not to become a formal member of a particular local body.

This, at any rate, is my opinion. I hope it’s a little helpful.

Shalom,

Michael Gleghorn
Probe Ministries

I heard this week on WMBI radio something from your group about gay issues… I have a teenage son who thinks he’s gay…a high-schooler. I don’t believe he is yet entrenched in any sort of gay lifestyle. . . What’s a mom to do with a loved one who is beginning to believe he’s gay?!

My heart goes out to you in dealing with your precious son who has been lied to about being gay. It’s one thing to have same-gender feelings, but quite another to put the “gay” label on oneself when it doesn’t have to be that way.

I have two suggestions for you. First, a book was written for EXACTLY young men like him, which I strongly suggest you get, read, and give to him. It’s called You Don’t Have to Be Gay: Hope and Freedom for Males Struggling With Homosexuality or for Those Who Know of Someone Who Is by Jeff Konrad. Amazon.com carries it. This book is a series of letters written by a man who discovered that through the power of Christ he could leave his homosexual identity behind, to a young man just beginning to consider that option. The wonderful thing is, the young man who received the letters is Mike Haley, who has since resolved his faith and sexuality and worked for a time at Focus on the Family as a youth and gender specialist. Mike has put together some awesome materials for kids in exactly your son’s position, and I suggest you contact Focus (1-800-A-FAMILY) and ask for the literature on youth and homosexuality. (That’s my second suggestion.)

In the meantime, we have several articles on homosexuality on the Probe Ministries website that may be of help to you:

Helping Teens Understand Homosexuality
Homosexual Myths
Homosexuality: Questions and Answers
Homosexual Theology
Can Homosexuals Change?

I also point you to the excellent resources at Living Hope Ministries, which has support and information for parents as well as strugglers. The Executive Director, Ricky Chelette, wrote this article called Help! My Son is Gay. You may also be interested in Living Hope’s video and audio resources: livehope.org/rescource-type/products/

I hope this helps. The Lord bless you and keep you in these difficult days.

In His grip,

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

There is a man in our church in his mid forties. I believe he really loves the Lord and is always a blessing to those who need him. We used to often have him to our home, but I noticed that he was often physical with our teen boys (rough-housing, etc.) I felt uncomfortable with this but thought perhaps he just wanted to be an uncle-type image. He has always enjoyed spending time with the young adult and teen men in our church, and, to my knowledge, has never behaved inappropriately with any of them.

We later learned, however, that he struggles with homosexual feelings. This is not common knowledge to others in our church, and we have decided it is not for us to say anything as we love this person and would not want to see him hurt. We told our boys that if they spent time with him it should be in a group or meet at a restaurant for dinner. This has worked well and there have been no problems, especially since our boys know the situation. Our dilemma is this. There is another teen in our church that he sometimes helps and spends time with. He is an 18 year old and I’m sure would say something if a problem occurred (he is also very close to our family). I truly believe nothing has happened. We don’t want to say anything to him or his family, but worry that if something should happen it would be our fault. It seems if someone is struggling with this type of thing, it would be best if he not spend time alone with young men. Am I correct? Just need any advice you might be able to give.

P.S. He does not spend time with younger children….(that I know of) mostly just older teens and young adults. He may just want friendship as a single man.

I asked my friend Ricky Chelette, a pastor and Executive Director of Living Hope Ministries, for help in answering your question. I loved his answer! I hope it helps.

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

As someone who has worked with male strugglers for a long time I appreciate your concerns and your cautions as a mother and friend. I think your concerns are real and I would too have some cautions if this gentleman is spending one on one time with an 18-year-old.

I really think that the best thing to do, as he is your friend, would be to sit down and talk to him. You obviously know that he struggles with homosexuality, yet you love him. He needs to know that. It will be terribly helpful for him to have you in the know and help him in his accountability.

I would suggest that you sit down with him and in a very loving manner state to him. “John, you have been a part of our church and family for a long time and we know that you struggle with homosexuality. We also know that you are a godly man, and we love you so very much. Because we do love you we want to know how we can walk with you on this difficult road. I am sure there are times that it is very difficult for you, and we want to be of help and support to you. How can we help?” He may or may not give you some answers. Depends. But at some point I would also say, “I know you wouldn’t want to engage anyone in our church in this activity, but I do want to caution you about being with some of the younger adults and older youth alone. These are crazy days we live in, and I wouldn’t want someone to falsely accuse you of something you never intended to do (i.e. Catholic Church scandal, etc.). You know we trust you with our boys and they love you greatly. But I do want you to be careful for your own good and theirs.” Something to that effect.

I realize this is a VERY touchy subject, but I think that the cautions are real. I doubt that anything has happened, but at the same time, that age of young adult/older youth 18-26 are prime candidates for someone that is struggling. That is the “ideal” age of our masculinity and those that struggle tend to “idealize” that age and desire that they were the people toward whom they experience same-gender attraction.

I pray that all this has been completely harmless and it probably has. However, you cannot ignore this. It needs to be addressed and you are responsible to him and to the young adults for your knowledge. To say nothing would be a disservice to all.

Many of the folks who struggle with this are very sensitive to younger guys. They feel as though they can give them some of what they didn’t get from their own fathers – touch, affirmation, attention, and love. They are most genuine and pure in that regard and do it with a deep sense of passion for God and for the folks they help. So it well might be that this is the case for the man you speak of. I pray that it is, but the fact that he does struggle should still put some more serious boundaries in his life.

Even if he were a married man, I would say the same thing. I don’t think that a married man should be spending one on one time with a youth or young adult on a regular basis. There is just too much room for misinterpretation. He (your friend) should know that. It is NOT just about his struggle, it is about being smart and safe for everyone involved.

I pray that this will be of help to you. Should I be of further help, please let me know. I pray that God will give you wisdom and grace as you share with him. You are a brave and good friend for addressing this issue with him.

Blessings.
Ricky Chelette
Executive Director, Living Hope Ministries
www.livehope.org

Mrs. Bohlin,

I just finished reading your well written and informative article “Homosexuality Q&A.” Your approach to the issue is refreshing and very new to me.

Your explanation of pre-conditions is solid, but the issue is still frustrating to me. The gay man has stronger sexual feelings toward men than I, thus it is much easier for me to ignore these feelings (which really don’t exist at all for many such as myself). On top of that, I (and many others) have a VERY strong sexual feeling toward females. My assumption is that (bi-sexuals excluded) these sexual tendencies do not coexist for the homosexual. So, is the homosexual to fight off the gay temptation as well as manufacture a false sexual desire for the opposite sex? And if so, do you think this is fair? God presents individuals with many challenges, but why that one?

I have a sinking feeling about this issue: As long as Christians regard homosexual acts as sins, we can never be accepted by some. Every time I attempt to be a Christian witness to my fiancée, this issue arises. She (like many gay supporters) struggles to see our God as a just God and Christianity as the true way, as long as we are defining gays as sinners. Is it possible to be a Christian witness to someone who will never concede that homosexual acts are sins? If so, how? If not, is my relationship doomed?

Additional questions: Is the gay Christian’s claim that the Bible is NOT clear about the issue completely unfounded? Have you heard of a compelling argument for this point of view? Also, I like your humble approach to dealing with gays (a bit different than Dr. Laura’s). But, suppose you are questioned by a homosexual about your true feelings about gay marriage, the act itself, etc.? What then? Take the risk that honesty may end the friendship? Lie to gain more understanding and display compassion? So many questions.

And you may never answer them or even read this email. That is completely acceptable being that you have no idea who I am. If you do decide to reply, thank you. I am having many difficulties with this issue and regard you as someone who is enlightened both by this issue and by the word of God.

Thank you for your kind words about my article. I am so glad I am able to provide a different perspective on homosexuality, because this issue is far more than an intellectual issue for me; I am very involved in a discipleship ministry to those dealing with unwanted same-sex attractions, and I see with my own eyes, on a weekly basis, how God can change lives.

Your explanation of pre-conditions is solid, but the issue is still frustrating to me. The gay man has stronger sexual feelings toward men than I, thus it is much easier for me to ignore these feelings (which really don’t exist at all for many such as myself). On top of that, I (and many others) have a VERY strong sexual feeling toward females. My assumption is that (bi-sexuals excluded) these sexual tendencies do not coexist for the homosexual.

People experience varying levels of attraction for the opposite sex. Homosexuality is really “gender identity confusion.” In terms of male homosexuals, they usually don’t experience sexual attraction to women because something happened that prevented them from learning what it means to be a boy, then later a man, and being comfortable with their masculinity. Men remained a mystery to them, and we are attracted to the “other,” to the mysterious. Homosexual men don’t generally experience sexual attraction to women because they’re stuck with unmet needs for close, bonding relationships with other males. Interestingly, once they learn to have healthy, non-erotic relationships with other men, some men can start to experience attraction to women. Or at least one woman. I know one man in his 30’s who is going through what he’s calling his “junior-high stage,” and absolutely marveling at what it feels like to find women attractive for the first time! (He’s having a great time of it, too! :::smile:::)

So, is the homosexual to fight off the gay temptation as well as manufacture a false sexual desire for the opposite sex?

To answer, let me draw a parallel to something in the physical realm. Let’s say someone has a broken arm. All the indications are that it’s broken because there’s a lot of pain, swelling—and the end of the bone has pierced the skin! Would we ever counsel them to tell themselves, “I’m not hurt, I don’t have a broken arm, I’m whole and well,” and suggest they conjure up feelings of painlessness? I hope you’re smiling because I mean it to be ludicrous and not judgmental. 🙂

When someone has erotic and romantic feelings for a person of the same sex, that’s a sign that something is broken—inside. Unfortunately, there is no x-ray machine for the heart that gives undeniable proof of a brokenness like we see with a broken bone. The pro-gay voices that seek to identify homosexuality as normal and good have deceived many people into denying that a homosexual orientation is “brokenness.” But it IS relational brokenness, and trying to tell someone not to feel same-gender attraction is like telling someone with a broken arm not to feel the pain.

Fighting off homosexual temptations means not participating in homosexual behavior (DOING), and choosing not to lust and sin in the mind (THINKING). It can’t mean not feeling the feelings, because that’s impossible to do. Trying to manufacture a false sense of attraction to the opposite sex won’t work either, any more than manufacturing a false sense of health and wholeness when your arm is broken. The important thing is to realize that having homosexual attractions in the first place is a sign that something is wrong, and then doing the hard work that addresses the emotional and relational brokenness that caused those feelings in the first place.

And if so, do you think this is fair? God presents individuals with many challenges, but why that one?

I hope you can see that I believe in being honest with the situation, acknowledging that there is a problem, that something is wrong, not pretending things are other than the way they are. I believe God honors us being truthful that way; Psalm 51 says, “I know that You desire truth in my inmost part.” Instead of saying “Pretend you’re not broken, and act like you’re something you’re not,” I believe God says to those dealing with same-gender attraction, “Acknowledge that something is truly wrong, and come to Me to bring healing and hope to you. Don’t rely on your own strength, because you don’t have what it takes to bring healing to your inmost wounds, or health to those unmet needs, those empty places, that only I can meet now.”

I have a sinking feeling about this issue: As long as Christians regard homosexual acts as sins, we can never be accepted by some.

Regrettably, you are right. As long as we insist on agreeing with what God has said, there will always be people who will call us narrow-minded, intolerant bigots. Let me put things in a little different perspective. When we say it’s wrong for a husband to cheat on his wife, that it’s sin, do people have a problem with that? Do they turn on God and call Him unjust and unloving? Not usually. How about those who have sex BEFORE marriage? When we call that sin, because it defiles the holiness of the marriage bed, do people use that as an excuse to turn on God? Some might, those who are committed to what they want regardless of what God says, but not with the same fervor as their reaction to the pronouncement of homosexual behavior as sin. Something is different, and it’s the result of what Romans 12 warns about in letting the world squeeze you into its mold. People who object to calling homosexuality sin have allowed the world to squeeze them into its mold.

ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is sin; God is not singling out homosexuals. But people lose sight of that, and a big reason is that they don’t understand the importance and significance of sex. They put it in the same category as scratching an itch or feeding a hungry stomach. But those are not moral areas as sex is, because sex has a spiritual dimension to it, where two become one and there is a mystical unity of husband and wife that reflects the mystical unity of Christ and the Church. (See Ephesians 5.) Homosexual sex (or premarital or extramarital heterosexual sex, for that matter) can NEVER even come close to the transcendent experience that intimacy between two committed people in a covenantal marriage relationship provides. This is not some philosophical pie-in-the-sky absolute I made up; this is the experience of people, some of whom I know personally, who have left homosexuality behind and are now enjoying what God intended in heterosexual marriage.

Every time I attempt to be a Christian witness to my fiancée, this issue arises. She (like many gay supporters) struggles to see our God as a just God and Christianity as the true way, as long as we are defining gays as sinners. Is it possible to be a Christian witness to someone who will never concede that homosexual acts are sins? If so, how? If not, is my relationship doomed?

Yes, it’s possible to be a Christian witness, because you have truth on your side. We know what is true because God said it in His word. But you have a larger problem on your hands that your fiancée’s refusal to see homosexual acts as sin, I fear; she apparently has no respect for the authority of the Bible. That is what underlies the insistence that what God calls sin, isn’t—because people don’t want it to be, and loud voices have assured them that it isn’t. ____, it sounds to me like you are unequally yoked (2 Corinthians 6:14). If you have trusted Christ and she hasn’t, if you believe that God has given us absolute truth and she denies it, how do you walk together with such diametrically opposed world views?

Additional questions: Is the gay Christian’s claim that the Bible is NOT clear about the issue completely unfounded? Have you heard of a compelling argument for this point of view?

Yes. They have taken verses that are explicitly clear and twisted them around, creating new explanations that don’t hold up to scrutiny. Joe Dallas has done an excellent job of refuting gay theology in his book A Strong Delusion. And he comes with outstanding credentials; for several years he was very involved in the gay church, learning the arguments inside out and backwards, before realizing they were lies and repenting of his wrong beliefs.

Also, I like your humble approach to dealing with gays (a bit different than Dr. Laura’s). But, suppose you are questioned by a homosexual about your true feelings about gay marriage, the act itself, etc.? What then? Take the risk that honesty may end the friendship? Lie to gain more understanding and display compassion? So many questions.

It becomes a lot clearer when you see how the Lord Jesus handled this sticky kind of situation. He never compromised on what was true and holy, but He also looked right through the shame and guilt that clung to those caught in various sins and loved the person underneath. (“Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”–John 8) When someone KNOWS they are accepted and loved right as they are, it’s easier for them to accept the truth about themselves and repent. I would never lie, but “speaking the truth in love” (Ephesians 4:12) puts me in a position to offer hope and help in pointing the way out. If the person chooses not to go through that door, that’s his decision. Some friendships cannot take the strain of one person walking in the light and the other walking in the darkness, and that’s part of the cost of following Christ.

I am having many difficulties with this issue and regard you as someone who is enlightened both by this issue and by the word of God.

There are plenty of good reasons to have difficulties with this issue, ____! It’s a hard one, but the wisdom and love of God are deeper still. I am thrilled to have learned so much about what often causes a homosexual orientation in the first place, and why that means there is a way out. Actually, there is hope in the truth that homosexual behavior is sin, because sin can be repented of and the broken heart healed; if homosexuality were an unredeemable, unchangeable condition, how tragic it would be for God to call it an abomination and not provide a way to escape it! It is a long, hard process to recognize how deeply the roots of homosexuality go, and invite Him to tear them out and replace them with His love and acceptance and truth. Glorious things happen when people do that—but it all starts with acknowledging the sin. The most grievous sin isn’t the sex act; it’s the idolatry and lusting and coveting underneath the desire to want what God has said is wrong to have. It’s really a heart issue, not a sexual issue.

Are you still awake? 🙂

Thank you for writing. I pray, as I send this, that God will bring comfort to you and maybe some answers to a difficult question; my heart hurts as I think about the tensions you must experience with your fiancee’s very different set of values and beliefs. I suspect this issue of homosexuality is painful for you because of the way it is exposing some major fissures in your relationship, and that’s scary and hurtful. I pray God’s rich wisdom for you and His blessings to overtake you and make you feel loved.

In His grip,

Sue

This is in regards to the outrageous essay “Homosexual Myths” by Sue Bohlin that is displayed on your web page. I realize that this woman is entitled to her opinion, but I am ashamed that (pardon my French) c**p such as this is allowed to be published. I am homosexual, and I come from a Christian family, and I have tried to come to terms with both my sexuality and my religion, all the way through my teen years, and I considered suicide many times. Also she says it’s a myth that you aren’t born homosexual. My family is completely anti homosexuality, and I cannot remember a time when I haven’t been attracted to women, so I wasn’t “made” to be homosexual, it wasn’t a choice.

She also says that 2 people in love can’t get married if they are of the same sex, and once again excuse my French, but b*lls**t, absolute b*lls**t. If two people are in love they should have the same rights as any other couple.

I am deeply hurt by what she has said. And the fact that someone would publish it hurts more.

_________, 15

Dear _________,

I am SO GLAD you wrote to reply to my essay on homosexual myths, since it made you so angry. I am glad to have a chance to respond to you and hopefully to clarify some things.

First of all, I hear your anger and I wonder if perhaps, under your anger, is a great deal of pain. I wonder if maybe you are one of the many, many young women who were abused and hurt as a child? In one study, 85-90% of the women who called a ministry helping people dealing with unwanted homosexuality report having been abused, usually sexually. If you grew up in a homophobic family (if that’s what you mean by “completely anti-homosexuality”), then I can see how that alone would plant all sorts of mixed and hurtful messages in your head and make you feel confused and hurt. If you considered suicide many times, you must be under a horrible load of pain. That breaks my heart for you. I am so sorry.

You say you cannot remember a time when you haven’t been attracted to women, but I wonder if–and very gently suggest–that’s not a line you heard somewhere and you adopted it as yours, maybe? Because little girls aren’t supposed to be sexually attracted to women–or men, or boys, or anybody else for that matter–until adolescence. But little girls often DO have crushes on other girls, and on female teachers. There’s a big difference between having strong feelings for someone you like and admire, and being sexually attracted to her. (For one thing, the sex hormones aren’t supposed to be running in young girls.) However, when little girls become sexual beings at an early age, that usually means someone has violated them by introducing them to sexual acts and feelings long before they were intended to experience those things.

I wonder, _______, did any of these things happen to you? Because you’re very angry, and underneath your anger is either pain or fear, and I don’t sense you’re too afraid here. Just really, really angry.

You said you were raised in a Christian family, but I don’t know if that means just a church-going family, or if you all truly know and love Jesus. Your statement about the family being “completely anti-homosexual” makes me think that maybe you heard a lot of judgmental, condemning comments that are very un-Christlike. It’s because I have seen for myself how Jesus tenderly loves and can heal women caught in same-sex attraction that I know that the ideas in my essay are true and they offer hope for change.

You said you were deeply hurt by what I said, but I promise, I didn’t say anything to hurt you or anyone else. Nonetheless, I believe that you ARE deeply hurt, and I want to say I am so very, very sorry for whatever brought you to this place. I wonder if you are one of those young ladies who has never felt comfortable in her femininity, because being a female means being weak and being victimized and being vulnerable. . . and being hurt. If your feelings of being “different” go way back as far as you can remember, then something happened to interfere with the normal development that God intended for you to enjoy. You were supposed to feel comfortable being a girl, regardless of what part of the spectrum of femininity you fall in. That was His intent. If that’s not where you ended up, I’m sorry for whatever caused that.

Please feel free to write back. My heart goes out to you. You seem to have more on your plate than a 15-year-old young lady should have to bear. I hurt for you, ______, and I am sending this e-mail back with a prayer that the Lord Jesus will wrap His arms around you and let you feel loved and protected and cherished and adored….because that’s His heart for you. He really does feel that way about you.

Your friend, I hope,

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

I’m wondering if you can point me to some good resources to help deal with the charge of “discrimination” often leveled at Christians over a stance against homosexuality and same-sex marriage (or against anyone who considers these things to be wrong). How do you answer that?

I’m not sure what resources to point you to, but I brought up your question to a number of fellow workers in the ministry to those with unwanted homosexuality with which I serve. The best response to this charge, I believe, is that those making the claim don’t understand discrimination. It is wrong to make people suffer based on unchangeable characteristics such as the color of one’s skin or gender. Homosexuality, however, is a lifestyle choice, and those demanding the “right” to marry do so based NOT on an unchangeable characteristic but on the basis of a chosen behaviors. (Which, of course, is eminently changeable.) It’s “apples and oranges.”

Homosexuality is defined by one’s behavior (acting out), but civil rights are defined by who/what you ARE, not what you DO. (Incidentally, I would argue that there is a difference between experiencing same-sex attractions, which are not chosen and which constitute temptation, and choosing to follow through on those attractions in ways God calls sin. I like what musician Dennis Jernigan says: “We are not defined by our temptations!”)

And although this argument doesn’t hold any water with those rebelling against God, I still think it’s worth saying: If God says something is wrong, it’s going to be harmful regardless of what the world says. That’s another good reason to prevent people from getting “married,” because their activity is going to be harmful, and it is in society’s best interests to prevent harm. (This doesn’t really have to do with your discrimination question, but I was struck by the wisdom of it when my friend mentioned it.)

So. . . there you have it. I hope it helps.

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries