I am a philosophy major at Oregon State University where Marcus Borg is a professor. Many of the churches in our community ascribe to his teaching.

Here is my question…I have a dear friend that grew up in an evangelical Catholic home and knows Christ as her personal savior. She has been attending the local Catholic church here in Corvallis and recently has been strongly confronted by one of the deacons on issues surrounding the literalism of the Bible (i.e. the ideas of the Jesus Seminar, taught by Borg). The deacon has been telling her that Biblical non-literalism as Borg teaches is part of Catholic doctrine and part of the Catechism. Is this accurate? Is this indeed an international Catholic teaching or does it depend on the individual parish or person?

I would appreciate any wisdom you might have on this topic. Honestly, it’s been really heated here lately, as Borg’s new book has just been released. We would love it if either of you (or other speakers from Probe) could come out and do a presentation for all of the confused Christians. There is a strong evangelical movement in Corvallis, but unfortunately, it tends to be strongly anti-intellectual and isn’t well respected in the university community. As a student, I want to be able to better understand the critical issues at hand and be able to represent Christ in grace, truth, and love.

Send me whatever thoughts you have…I read article on the Jesus Seminar through Leadership University and that helped, but I really would love even more detailed information if you have any.

Thank you so much for serving as a resource for students of the Word!

Thank you for your recent e-mail concerning the Jesus Seminar. I can empathize with your “dilemma” under the shadow of Marcus Borg at your university.

I don’t know if you have checked the Probe Website (www.probe.org) or not, but I would direct you to at least two essays: one that I wrote is called The Jesus Seminar, and a second was written by my colleague, Rick Wade, entitled The Historical Christ. You will find good bibliographical info for further study.

I would rather doubt that the tenets of the Jesus Seminar are now officially sanctioned by the Roman Catholic Church worldwide. I would recommend that your friend ask for official, written documentation from this priest for his assertion that this is true. I am 99% positive that no such position has been taken by the Catholic church and its biblical scholars. There is too much at stake for the church to take such a radical stand which undermines much of what they have held to be true about Jesus Christ.

If you are looking for someone to come and debate Borg, I would suggest that you contact my good friend Dr. J. P. Moreland and/or Michael J. Wilkins at Talbot Seminary in southern California. They edited a book entitled Jesus Under Fire which was published by Zondervan in 1995. Each chapter is written by a evangelical scholar, each of which develops and refutes the major arguments of the Jesus Seminar position.

I have been studying this topic for several years, and following the literature, but these men, as New Testament Scholars, are current on this issue and have devoted the kind of study and depth necessary to give good account of themselves with a fine scholar like Borg.

I can appreciate your frustration with the general Christian community. Most are not “armed” for the battle of ideas which we face. That is why I left Campus Crusade in 1973 and began Probe Ministries. At the time I gave oversight to the Campuses in the Southwest U.S. The worldview America has come to embrace generally now once existed only on a few campuses: UC Berkeley, San Francisco State, U. of Wisconsin (Madison), Columbia U., and U. of Colorado.

I found myself hard pressed to respond to the questions of these students. So I decided the Lord was calling upon me not to “curse the darkness”, but rather “light some lamps!” The early Christians, it is said, were effective because they OUT-THOUGHT and OUT-LOVED the ancient world! In fact, for 250 years after the apostles died off, the church did nothing but try to survive and answer/refute/respond to all the doctrinal challenges which came from the Jewish and Pagan communities without, and from sects and heresies within. They were so busy doing this, that it was not until 325 A.D. (Council of Nicea) that the addressed/clarified the doctrine of the Trinity! The FIRST theology of the early church was APOLOGETICAL theology, and we find ourselves facing the same kind of circumstances and challenges today.

So you hang in there! And tell your friend to do the same. Challenge the priest and don’t be bullied by him. If it IS an official position, tell her that I requested that it be documented so I will be able to confirm to others who ask that this is truly official. If I were a betting man (and I am ::::SMILE!::::), your friend will find that no such affirmation of this policy will be forthcoming.

With Warm Regards in Christ,

Jimmy Williams, Founder
Probe Ministries

I have just finished reading and re-reading your articles, “Freemasonry and the Christian Church” and “Edgar Cayce: The Sleeping (False) Prophet.”

I have been attempting some research on Freemasonry, since I recently considered joining the Lodge. Have no fear; I no longer have any desire to be a Mason, since it clearly conflicts with my relationship to Christ. However, my grandfather is a 33rd degree Mason and my wife’s grandparents are heavily involved in Freemasonry. He is a past Master (whatever that means), and they both attend meetings and other events (mostly with Eastern Star) several times a week. I know that this year, they are the “Worthy Matron” and “Worthy Patron” for their Eastern Star chapter here in ______. My wife also has a cousin who is planning on joining the Lodge after he leaves the armed forces. They all profess to be Christians. I also have an aquaintaince at work who is a Mason — he wears two masonic rings with the compass, square, and “G” symbols. I don’t believe that he is a Christian.

My grandfather is also a fan of Edgar Cayce. He has numerous books with his healings and such. He once told me that the two books he reads are the Bible and one of Cayce’s.

So my question is, how can I bring up the subject with any of them? I don’t know if there are others in the family who are deceived, and don’t know who to ask about it. I am very concerned about this issue, since both my wife and I lost our other grandfathers less than two years ago. They were both dedicated to the Lord and we know that we will be with them in His presence for eternity. I want to be sure where our surviving grandparents will be when they pass from this life to the next. My wife’s grandfather just turned 71 and my grandfather will be 81 in October.

There is a definite need to educate the Church on this issue. I probably would not know about it if I hadn’t been interested in joining.

Thank you for your ministry, and for the biblical truth that you proclaim.

Thanks so much for your question and your desire to learn how to address such an obviously sensitive issue. Freemasonry has a lot of baggage that makes it oftentimes a heated topic of discussion.

Given the fact that there is a great deal of mystery as to the history and heritage of freemasonry, it would be a mistake to say a Mason cannot be a Christian. Much of it has religious undertones. The question must be, “What kind of religion?” Many in the church have had and still do have a close relationship with this “fraternity.” Paganistic religion has also historically been a large contributor to masonic ritual. Depending upon your chosen masonic historian, the history of freemasonry can deal more with one than the other (Christianity and paganism).

Without a doubt, freemasonry is clouded with both Christian and pagan influence today. I’m sure, since you have read our articles on freemasonry and Edgar Cayce, that you know their inconsistencies with biblical faith. That brings us to your question. “How can I bring this up and be assured that my family members are grounded in biblical faith in Jesus Christ?”

It is not necessarily a given that these family members do not know Christ just because of their association with groups and teachers that are misleading. But it is certainly reason for concern. Perhaps you could open a discussion with some questions for them about some of the basic teachings of freemasonry. Since you have shown interest in the past in joining the lodge, they may not see it as “too nosey” for you to be asking questions about freemasonry. You could, for instance, ask what the lodge teaches about Jesus? The answer you get is likely to be quite subjective to the particular person you ask. One Mason may say that they teach that Jesus is the only Son of the Father God who redeemed mankind through His atonement, while others may answer that He is one among many religious types to pay heed to. Regardless, you have a segue here that can lead you to share with them who He really is.

Another question worth asking your family members would be on their view of Scripture. “Is the Bible a unique sacred writing to the Masons?” Again, their view is subject to be quite broad. But you have an opportunity here to probe them to not only answer your questions, but possibly to ask those questions themselves. There is a very good chance that you will be the first person to bring this up in discussion for them. The uniqueness of Scripture makes it substantially superior to the Bhagavad Gita and the Koran, to name only a few. Therefore, you have another inlet for substantial dialogue on the exclusivity of the Christian faith versus the religious pluralism of the masonic perspective.

There are many other subjects of discussion that you may strike a chord with. But the pervading sentiment must be one of humble inquiry. Don’t be pushy or opinionated. They will most likely be attracted to your desire to learn from them. Any scent of your attempts to change their minds or to get them out of the lodge will almost definitely send them running. So be honestly interested in what they have to tell you, no matter how off the mark it is. Remember, you are bringing up this conversation in order to determine their destination for eternity. So love them, above all else. Their membership to the lodge is not what determines their fate. It is their relationship to the true Master of all, Jesus Christ, that will chart their eternal course.

I pray that your efforts to bring up these matters before your family will end in a fruitful harvest, also resulting in a deeper relationship between you and your grandparents, cousin, and even your co-worker.

Thanks so much for your e-mail. God rewards those who seek Him.
Proverbs 2:3-5

Kris Samons
Probe Ministries

Dear Mr. Bohlin,

I will be attending Cornell University in the fall of 2000. My declared major is pre-med, biochemical engineering. I will also attending the Mind Games conference in July. Can you suggest any Christian reading materials for me so that I can be prepared for the conference in July, but most importantly, so I can be prepared for Cornell in August as a Christian.

Good to hear we will see you in July! I am looking forward to meeting you and spending the week together.

I would recommend Jim Sire’s book, The Universe Next Door, as a good place to start. Worldview is an essential concept to the conference and Sire maps out the different worldviews in a concise manner. Considering your future major, I would recommend Darwin’s Black Box by Michael Behe and Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds by Phillip Johnson for starters. If Sire proves interesting reading to you and you are wondering where some of these strange ideas came from, you might look for a copy of Francis Schaeffer’s How Should We Then Live? which briefly (258 pages) traces the historical development of philosophy, theology, art and science in the west. Though the book is over twenty years old, Schaeffer turned out to be an accurate prophet of where things were headed. So, read Sire first and take on the others as time, money and interest dictate.

See you in July.

Respectfully,

Ray Bohlin, Ph.D.
Probe Ministries

You assume your belief in the bible is the truth. If you disregard that book of stories to live by, then the arguments of right and wrong are invalid.

Now if your points against abortion were based on your feeling of terminating a life, not what you are told in a book then I would have much more respect for your point of view.

For those who feel abortion is wrong…. good for them, they have that choice… others choosing to have an abortion will deal with it.

It’s not your decision to make for others. You must understand that we all don’t subscribe to your beliefs… and that’s the great thing about our country, we are free to do as we feel right based on our upbringing.

I hope I have not misinterpreted your writings on this web page.

Thanks for writing about my abortion article at the Probe Ministries site.

You assume your belief in the bible is the truth. If you disregard that book of stories to live by, then the arguments of right and wrong are invalid.

Yes, I do assume that the Bible is true. Just as you assume that your beliefs are true. I used to dismiss the Bible as a fanciful “book of stories to live by,” but after I found out how unusual it is, how incredibly consistent it is internally even though written by scores of authors on four continents within a span of thousands of years, I came to the conclusion that it was actually quite a miraculous book, inspired by God, and worth my trust.

If we disregard the Bible, which claims to be God’s communication with us, then why even talk about issues of right and wrong? Without God in the picture, who says there IS a right and wrong? Without God, the universe just IS. No meaning, no purpose–and certainly no right and wrong.

Now if your points against abortion were based on your feeling of terminating a life, not what you are told in a book then I would have much more respect for your point of view.

So, if I based my position against abortion on feelings alone, you could respect that. . .but since I base my position on what I completely believe to be God’s revealed truth, it’s fluff? Feelings are a dangerous basis for opinions; they often have nothing in common with reality. How do you know that that $20 bill in your wallet is actually worth $20? Somebody told you it was, right? Does that make that belief invalid? But if you use that bill to buy $20 worth of merchandise, a store will accept that money. That’s because it corresponds to reality. I believe that my position on abortion—regardless of where I got those beliefs—also corresponds to reality. The question that ought to be asked about my position is not “where did you get it,” but “is it true?”

It’s not your decision to make for others. You must understand that we all don’t subscribe to your beliefs… and that’s the great thing about our country, we are free to do as we feel right based on our upbringing.

I’m sorry, where did you read that I make a decision for anyone else? I state that abortion is wrong because God says that it’s wrong. I state that abortion is hurtful because that’s what experience teaches us. That’s a long way from stopping someone from having an abortion. You are more than free not to subscribe to my beliefs; but why would you challenge my right to hold them? I don’t know how you ended up at that article, but the way the Internet works, you had to go out and search it out. It seems rather strange to me that you would look for and read an article on abortion, then castigate the author for not agreeing with you. . .???

I hope I have not misinterpreted your writings on this web page.

Well, I think you probably have, but that’s your right. Almost all the articles at the Probe site started out as radio transcripts for a 5-minute program that airs on about 400 Christian radio stations; then we put the transcripts online. I’m glad you read it, even though I’m not sure why you would want to, if you so easily dismiss others’ positions if they’re based on revelation and not gut feelings.

But have a good day.

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

On a Christian site, someone said that it is a sin to wear a bikini. I do not agree because I went sailing the other day and I was the only one not wearing a bikini and the men on the boat did not gaze at the women wearing bikinis. I do not think bikinis are immodest because they can be appropriate when swimming, just not for walking around on the street or other public places.

I would like to direct you to Wendy Shalit’s book A Return to Modesty, which covers the subject of modesty (and immodesty) better than anything I’ve ever read. It is consistent with a Christian world view even though the author is not a Christian.

In my opinion, wearing a bikini is sinful under most circumstances because the purpose of it is to show off as much flesh as possible while still covering the absolute essentials of genitals and nipples. There is nothing God-honoring about bikinis and much that is gratifying to the flesh: for men to leer and for women to show off their bodies. Scripture calls us to live and dress modestly, not to gratify the flesh. It calls us to do everything to the glory of God: wearing bathing suits that are designed to cause men to lust and women to publicly display their bodies is the opposite of glorifying God.

If the men on your sailboat didn’t gaze at the women wearing bikinis, I would suggest that they may have been desensitized. Or perhaps they were just wearing sunglasses and you didn’t notice their eyes! <smile>

I will add a disclaimer. There is nothing at all sinful in a wife wearing a bikini if only her husband will see her in it. Showing off her body to please him is part of the pleasure of sex that God intends for married couples to enjoy. See “The Song of Solomon” in the Old Testament for biblical evidence of that.

I’m glad you asked.

Sue Bohlin

Probe Ministries

Sue, I have a Christian friend who is highly superstitious. This is very surprising to me. I would like to be able to give him scriptural references which apply to this. I cannot understand how he reconciles the sovereignty of God with superstition. He actually thinks that things like “knocking on wood” have affect on the outcome of situations. He is also highly intelligent. If you know if any articles which address this, I would appreciate that information as well.

I share your incredulity at your friend’s belief in both superstition and a sovereign God!

Here are two powerful scriptures that I think are eye-opening concerning superstitious Christians:

Exodus 20:2-5 — The first commandment:

“I am the LORD your God . . . You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God . . . “

Being superstitious is to trust in an act, like knocking on wood or not stepping on a crack, instead of in God. It is nothing less than idolatry! (This is why astrology is also wrong, also idolatrous—it is trusting in the stars instead of the Star-Creator!) When we trust in a superstition instead of in God, we are making it into an idol.

The other scripture is in 2 Kings 1:3:

“But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, ‘Go up and meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and ask them, `Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going off to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?’”

I think this verse makes it clear that consulting (and of course, trusting) anything other than the one true God is an insult and affront to God.

I’ll be interested in hearing his response to this information . . .

Sue Bohlin

Probe Ministries

What is a biblical definition of ‘miracle’?

The term “miracle” has lost much of its luster in our day. And it isn’t because we see miracles taking place so often that we no longer are sensitive to their meaning. It’s because our speech has evolved in such a way that today, if I got to work on time this morning, “It was a miracle that I made it, seeing that there was so much traffic on the freeway.”

A biblical model and definition, on the other hand, for a miracle is another thing all together. Not everything hard to believe can be quantified as a miracle according to scriptural standards. Miracles are those acts that only God can perform; usually superceding natural laws. Baker’s Dictionary of the Bible defines a miracle as “an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the simple volition of God.” It goes on to add that a miracle occurs to show that the power behind it is not limited to the laws of matter or mind as it interrupts fixed natural laws. So the term supernatural applies quite accurately.

It’s very interesting that a common word used for miracle in the New Testament can also be translated “sign.” A miracle is a sign that God uses to point to Himself; the same way we follow signs to find a museum or an airport.

An interesting question may arise. Does something have to break a natural law for it to be a miracle? C.S. Lewis defines a “miracle” in his work by the same name as an interference with nature by a supernatural power. Obviously, to interfere with natural law may not necessarily mean to break the natural law. In fact, nature and “supernature” become interlocked after a miracle occurs and nature carries on according to the change wrought by that event. A science example: the law of inertia (Newton’s first law of motion) states that an object will remain in rest until an external force is applied. Nature can only move from event to event through supernatural intervention.

Deists believe that it was only at creation that the supernatural and the natural related. But we Christian theists believe that God has intervened in nature by its inception, sustained it by His preserving power, and will redeem it through the final act of intervention. The creation and incarnation of Christ are the perfect examples of supernatural inertia (another way of referring to a miracle), not to mention their conclusion as well, in His second coming. God is still in the business of working miracles. And we wait eagerly for that greatest miracle of them all–the redemption of all creation.

Thanks for your question.

Kris Samons
Probe Ministries

In researching the book of Daniel on the internet, I found a Web site written by a man named Bernard D. Muller in which he mythologizes Daniel and Revelation. I was just flabbergasted that he would pretty much say Daniel’s prophecies are a pack of lies. He says the book was actually written after all those things came to pass and that’s how it seems so accurate. He completely discombobulated the 70 weeks’ prophecy. Take a look at the web page and let me know what you think.

Thanks for the concern and the link to Muller’s page. His criticisms of Daniel are not new. Porphyry had similar things to say in the third century. It’s funny that the biggest reason for such criticism is that Daniel was just too accurate. Muller is trying to be an “objective” historian. Therefore, the presupposition that God knows the past, present, and future and is willing to reveal parts of it to humanity is outlandish to him.

It ought to be noted that Muller’s criticisms of historic Jewish and Christian views on Daniel are quite one-sided. This is based on his biases and presuppositions, not on common sense and honest hermeneutics.

The authorship and time period of Daniel is clearly a subject of debate for Muller. There really isn’t a problem with the 6th century dating of Daniel. Charles Ryrie has addressed some of the same points Muller sees as problems. Daniel would have known some of the Persian language, being from that period. And some Greek would have been common since there were Greek mercenaries employed in both Assyria and Babylonia. Daniel’s Aramaic is consistent with what would have been common in the 6th century Near East. If the book had been written in the 2nd century B.C. then there would have obviously been much more Greek used than what is found. The Nabonidus Chronicle has shed some light on the existence of both Belshazzar and Darius the Mede. Daniel’s inclusion in the Dead Sea Scrolls dates it at least before the Maccabees (seeing as how there were copies found at Qumran). So again, the 6th century date is not as problematic as Muller would have you believe.

I’m not sure how much of his treatise you want me to comment on, but I’ll just go through a bit of it, to help you. To address each point he makes would be a long drawn-out endeavor. Early on, it is obvious that Muller wants to deconstruct Daniel, making himself the most authoritative reader of the text. That’s fine, but then he has no business making statements about what the writer (or writers, in his opinion) was aiming to do (such as “dropping the name Cyrus”). It is presumptuous, to say the least, that whoever is responsible for the book of Daniel is out to pull the wool over the reader’s eyes by pretending to be someone he isn’t. Also, Muller points out over and over that something has no validity if it is not backed up with secular sources. Has it never occurred to him that something could still be truthful, in spite of its exclusion from other sources? Besides, there are no exterior sources that contradict the traditional reading of Daniel. The only true problems that arise are the biases of the respective reader. If one doesn’t want to believe something, one doesn’t have to have legitimate criticisms. Muller’s painstaking analysis of Daniel can be deceiving. Lots of work and details do not a scholarly treatise make! There is a vacancy of even the attempt to be objective. There is also a biting sentiment of sarcasm and bitterness prevalent.

The historical redaction found in Muller’s work is related to the same type of criticisms of Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch (Graf-Wellhausen theory). They are not attempts to explain the origin of an ancient book. Yet they do overflow with naturalistic presuppositions. Yes, even smart people can have biases! I pray that God may keep us all humble enough to be aware of our own biases and yet to find Truth where He resides (at the right hand of the Father).

Forgive me for not being able to speak to all that Muller lays out on his Web page. I hope that this will at least comfort you and give you a groundwork to begin with. God rewards those who seek Him.

Proverbs 2:3-5
Kris Samons
Probe Ministries

I know that not all angels have wings. But what about the old saying that angels must earn their wings, and why do they need wings? If they are spirits, they can float about, why need wings? And when do they earn them?

The Bible doesn’t tell us that much about angels, and that is our only source of dependable information about spiritual beings.

That “old saying” is only that, and it has nothing to do with truth or reality. The Bible says nothing about angels earning their wings; it does say that God created them, and there are good angels and evil angels. Whatever wings they have were given to them by God.

Why do they need wings? The description of seraphim in Isaiah 6 says that those angels had “six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.” Wings were used to show respect to God by covering their faces and feet, but they also used them to fly. I don’t know why–maybe because it’s fun? :::::smile:::::

Hope this helps separate the cultural ideas we have about angels from some of the biblical truth about them. My guess is that God doesn’t tell us a whole lot about angels because He knows we’d concentrate on them instead of on Him. And holy angels would be horrified by that prospect!

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

If I may make a suggestion, there is far more information about angels other than the bible. Maybe I missed the point of this page. The Koran & Talmud have more info that early Christianity left out.

Blessed be,
________
Dear friend,

How do you know that the information in the Koran and Talmud are correct? We write from a Christian perspective, believing that the only holy scriptures that can be trusted are the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. There is good evidence for divine inspiration of the Bible, but not of the two sources you cite.

That’s why we limit ourselves to Biblical information.

Thanks for writing.

Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries